Saints accused of "Bounty Program". Thoughts?

[BHalbrooks]

Originally Posted by Stephen

So fans of other teams busting chops? No offense, but whoopity damn doo. I still hear about Favre and his vicodin addiction, and his flashing his wee-wee, etc., and those things are completely irrelevant to the Packers (and have been for some time).

Their playoff record disagrees with you, and what gives a lot of fuel to the fire as to how big of an impact it made in the Patriots winning three Super Bowls.

Ok. Except the team that won the Super Bowl in 2007 won it again this year.

Grossly circumvented the salary cap which directly led them to being able to put together that team that won back-to-back Super Bowls in the late 90's. If I remember correctly they were fined alomst a million dollars and forfeited a couple of draft picks.

I didn't know that about the Bronco's. Hm.
I wasn't saying it as, "Oh poor us". I was saying it as in, "Yea, people still bring it up and it's annoying..."
Yea yea yea. F the Giants.

Originally Posted by E.J.

You need to read what you are linking.... He said it was a clean hit, no malicious intent, Brady just happened to get hurt. In a nutshell....

You don't care? So you make strong statements, refuting previous comments, but really don't care if they are true or to back them up.....

I again ask you to find me something that says that Mr. Pollard or any other NFL play states that they are going out trying to blow up knees, ankles, ruin careers/seasons. Guys lose a season to a knee regularly, but I cannot think of a hit on a season ending play that I thought was overtly malicious or dirty.


...and just to be clear, to be okay with doing your job and having someone get a season ending injury, doesn't mean that you went out to intentionally injure/maim. It doesn't mean that you are okay with dirty plays that result in season ending injuries. It doesn't mean that you are going out trying to end guys seasons/careers.

A player can be fine with the result of a clean hit, even if it ends with an injury. Hell, these guys will be living with a lot of regret if they have to worry about every time someone gets hurt. One more time....

My statement -



Your response, quoting my post -

I understand what I said, thank you for quoting it....
I also said that I didn't care to, because I don't need to prove anything to you... I heard the interview, you look it up if you want to believe it. Believe it or not, I don't give a damn. Being "proud" of that hit is a pretty stupid comment to make, which is why I linked it.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by BHalbrooks

I understand what I said, thank you for quoting it....
I also said that I didn't care to, because I don't need to prove anything to you... I heard the interview, you look it up if you want to believe it. Believe it or not, I don't give a damn. Being "proud" of that hit is a pretty stupid comment to make, which is why I linked it.

Exactly what I thought... Thanks for playing........

[BHalbrooks]

Your ignorance astounds me.

[yourchoice]

Wow, the league came down HARD. Deserved, IMHO.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/77...-year-bounties

[Gophernut]

That's a beefy penalty. Williams suspended indefinitely, Payton suspended for the season, GM gone for 8 games and out 500K Saint fined 500K and lose the 2nd round pick the next two years! That's very stiff. It will be appealed I would imagine.

[OLS]

I think I will use the ignore function on some people for the first time ever.
WAIT...where the hell is it?

[pektel]

I think it was a fair punishment. Hell, fine them MORE. They should have to pay inflated stadium prices for everything.

I don't agree with the observation that it should be accepted just because that's the way it is. That's like saying not to arrest drug dealers, because there will always be heroin on the streets.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by pektel

I think it was a fair punishment. Hell, fine them MORE. They should have to pay inflated stadium prices for everything.

I don't agree with the observation that it should be accepted just because that's the way it is. That's like saying not to arrest drug dealers, because there will always be heroin on the streets.

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.

[pektel]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.

I was not calling out the saints in particular. Simply stating that if they were found guilty of bounty hits, that they should be paying a fine.

Just because someone drinks and drives and gets away with it does not make it any better than the person who does the same but wrecks and kills innocent people. They are both horribly wrong for acting in the manner they did to begin with.

My argument is purely on the principle. And my apologies if I came across differently than my intention.

[Islayphile]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.

My take as well

[bobarian]

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by bobarian

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion.

It was discussed (albeit briefly) early in the thread, but the moral outrage of football players getting hit drowned that discussion out.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by bobarian

I think the main issue is being missed here. Today's punishment was levied for specific violations of NFL rules. Including disregarding a specific memo that had to be signed and returned to the league office regarding ANY performance bonuses. These are a clear violation of the salary cap. Whether anyone was injured or fined doesnt matter, the program existed and thats why punishments were given.

Individual player suspensions will be forthcoming, in addition to possible IRS investigations of tax evasion.

I can't agree with you Bob. While I understand the cap violations are part of the story, Roger Goodell has stated that player safety is paramount. The GM may be receiving his suspension because of the cap implications, but Gregg Williams is receiving his for the bounty. That's how I see it, anyway.

Here's a couple quotes from Roger Goodell

Originally Posted by Goodell

"The game doesn't need to be played this way. We think that while it is a strong message, its an important one to send -- that we need to protect our players."

"We are all accountable and responsible for player health and safety and the integrity of the game. We will not tolerate conduct or a culture that undermines those priorities. No one is above the game or the rules that govern it. Respect for the game and the people who participate in it will not be compromised."

"A combination of elements made this matter particularly unusual and egregious. When there is targeting of players for injury and cash rewards over a three-year period, the involvement of the coaching staff, and three years of denials and willful disrespect of the rules, a strong and lasting message must be sent that such conduct is totally unacceptable and has no place in the game."

To reason that the money aspect is driving this doesn't make sense to me.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.

I don't believe the NFL lists their fines. We hear of them all the time, but I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list of them provided by the NFL.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't search for them. At the risk of reading more rhetoric...
This one probably paints the Saints in the poorest light. Interesting that Williams is quoted in that article saying "If that guy doesn't want his head tore off, duck. Because that's how we're playing." Classy! Reading it now, after the league came down on him and the Saints, makes him look even more like an ass.

Here's another one you're familiar with. Bobby McCray on Favre.

I also found fines levied on other Saint players for illegal hits or unnecessary roughness. In 2010, Malcolm Jenkins and Marvin Mitchell. 2009 Jonathon Vilma. 2008 Kevin Kaesviharn.

Good enough?

Oh, just found another one. Roman Harper (again) last year.

That's all the time I needed.

Feel free to research each of the incidents I listed further to see if anyone missed any playing time. Take all the time you need.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by yourchoice

I don't believe the NFL lists their fines. We hear of them all the time, but I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list of them provided by the NFL.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't search for them. At the risk of reading more rhetoric...
This one probably paints the Saints in the poorest light. Interesting that Williams is quoted in that article saying "If that guy doesn't want his head tore off, duck. Because that's how we're playing." Classy! Reading it now, after the league came down on him and the Saints, makes him look even more like an ass.

Here's another one you're familiar with. Bobby McCray on Favre.

I also found fines levied on other Saint players for illegal hits or unnecessary roughness. In 2010, Malcolm Jenkins and Marvin Mitchell. 2009 Jonathon Vilma. 2008 Kevin Kaesviharn.

Good enough?

Oh, just found another one. Roman Harper (again) last year.

That's all the time I needed.

Feel free to research each of the incidents I listed further to see if anyone missed any playing time. Take all the time you need.

1. Gregg Williams wasn't the DC of the Saints in 2008.
2. I don't need to; the WSJ already did that for us.
3. The burden of proof isn't on me to show that players were getting intentionally maimed by Saints defenders under Gregg Williams guidance.

[forgop]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Feel free to show me all the fines for illegal hits Saints players incurred over the past three seasons. While you're at it, please list the players who were injured for any period of time as a direct result from a hit or hits levied by a Saints defender. Take all the time you need.

For all the crybaby Favre fans complaining about the beating Favre took that game, I heard them talking on Mike and Mike that the NFL didn't fine a single player and reviewing the game once again in light of said information, didn't really provide any more insight that the Saints were really playing dirty. Perhaps they were playing more within the full rules, but too many hits or hitting too hard? This isn't pee wee football we're talking about here.

If Favre didn't need a walker to get around before the game, it's even less of an issue of taking the hits during the game.

[Gophernut]

Originally Posted by forgop

I heard them talking on Mike and Mike that the NFL didn't fine a single player and reviewing the game once again in light of said information, didn't really provide any more insight that the Saints were really playing dirty. Perhaps they were playing more within the full rules, but too many hits or hitting too hard? This isn't pee wee football we're talking about here.

Not true actually.
Article from the Star Tribune (1/29/10)

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vi.../83074192.html
Three New Orleans Saints players were fined a total of $30,000 for four different hits in Sunday's NFC Championship game. Three of those hits were delivered to Brett Favre.

As we mentioned earlier Bobby McCray was fined $20,000 for two hits on Favre. The first came after Favre handed off to Percy Harvin in the first quarter. McCray then hit Favre in the knees on his interception in the third quarter, causing Favre to suffer a left ankle injury.

Defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he lifted Favre up and slammed him to the turf in the third quarter.
Finally, Jonathan Casillas was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he hit punt returner Darius Reynaud after he had downed the ball.

[yourchoice]

Originally Posted by Gophernut

Not true actually.
Article from the Star Tribune (1/29/10)

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vi.../83074192.html
Three New Orleans Saints players were fined a total of $30,000 for four different hits in Sunday's NFC Championship game. Three of those hits were delivered to Brett Favre.

As we mentioned earlier Bobby McCray was fined $20,000 for two hits on Favre. The first came after Favre handed off to Percy Harvin in the first quarter. McCray then hit Favre in the knees on his interception in the third quarter, causing Favre to suffer a left ankle injury.

Defensive tackle Anthony Hargrove was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he lifted Favre up and slammed him to the turf in the third quarter.
Finally, Jonathan Casillas was fined $5,000 for unnecessary roughness when he hit punt returner Darius Reynaud after he had downed the ball.

Steve, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

[jledou]

Wow they are sending a message ... we don't know all the details, but I would imagine they can and will appeal this to an extent. If the Saints don't then I would say the NFL has more facts then we know of right now.

[Gophernut]

Doing a bit of reading on this topic today I have a couple of things that sort of stuck out for me. To those who are defending the Saints, didn't Payton already admit wrongdoing? I am quite sure that his statement on March 6 where he acknowledged that the bounty program existed and that he would make sure that he never be involved with it again is an admission of guilt. Having said that, the penalty seems to me to make sense. The 2nd is that it seems to me that this is as much about lying about it originally than it is about any specific injury that may or may not have happened because of the bounty program. Now whether or not a bounty program exists on other teams, or has existed is still up for debate. The fact that it existed here, to me, isn't about the salary cap, or the dollar amounts it's more about the motivation to make the big hit. I do just fine at work, but if I win a measly little office pool for $5 bucks, I get more satisfaction from that then I do my weekly paycheck. So the motivation for me to win the office pool is almost greater than what drives me to perform my job. I hope I'm saying that so it makes sense to people. I certainly enjoy the $5 bucks more. So even though these players all do really well, I can see it motivating them to get the payoff in front of their teammates.