Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by Stephen

The NCAA needs to get involved with this about as much as Congress needed to hold hearings on steroids in MLB...

So an NCAA institution that broke laws to cover their asses & reputation, shouldn't be addressed by their governing body..hummmmm

[oooo35980]

I believe they should be punished as an example to others, they did all this covering up to protect the program, for the NCAA to do nothing would amount to "Meh, as long as you didn't cheat it isn't our problem". With something this huge the pressure has to be on them to do something anyway, I don't think Penn State will be getting out of this alive.

[jonumberone]

Originally Posted by oooo35980

I believe they should be punished as an example to others,

If you lack the moral character to make the right decision by yourself, will a possible penalty from the NCAA really matter?


The people involved are gone.
All the Coaches are gone.
The AD is gone as well as his assistants.
The school President is gone.
Exactly who do you want to punish?

If you want to ban the above people from ever being involved in any NCAA activity, fine.
But what is left of Penn State, wasn't involved.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by E.J.

So an NCAA institution that broke laws to cover their asses & reputation, shouldn't be addressed by their governing body..hummmmm

Because the issue at hand has zilch to do with athletics or collegiate athletes that are governed by the NCAA. Concealing evidence in a criminal investigation, however heinous the crime(s), doesn't give them jurisdiction (because none of their bylaws were violated). This is a lynch mob out for blood. Nothing more, nothing less.

[smitty81]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Because the issue at hand has zilch to do with athletics or collegiate athletes that are governed by the NCAA. Concealing evidence in a criminal investigation, however heinous the crime(s), doesn't give them jurisdiction (because none of their bylaws were violated). This is a lynch mob out for blood. Nothing more, nothing less.

Are you kidding?

It has a LOT to do with the College athletics (NCAA).

A LOT of this happened ON campus in the LOCKER ROOM. The coaches covered it up so it wouldn't hurt their football program.

Sure, the NCAA doesn't have the authority to take legal actions like the court system but they have their own set of laws and rules that you have to agree to if you are going to be affiliated. Thats just how it is and it's always been that way.

I think your a little off track here.

I am no lynch mob, I believe in fair punishment in the court system and on the NCAA side of things. My opinion is an unbiased opinion.

[E.J.]

Stephen, Josh pretty much covered why it is a football issue...it is clear that this is more than just some criminal happening, it was enmeshed within the football program....if you cannot see that, well......we can agree to disagree.

Dom, like I stated previously, punishing the school is just how this stuff is done. Same thing with any violations. I am all in favor of the NCAA tagging coaches/administrators like they did with Sweater Vest, but the school as an institution needs to be held accountable as well. It is unfortunate that there is collateral damage, but it is just how it goes. You cannot just say, everyone is gone, let's move forward....

[E.J.]

But, for the record, I think that if the NCAA found out that an institution was covering up major illegal activity within a sports program, bet your ass they'd step in....and I'd expect them to.

....and I think you'll find that they do in this instance as well.... Which is the exact reason PSU is trying to figure out how to get ahead of the curve as I type....

[E.J.]

But back to that post.... So Stephen, you'd agree that this is cover-up of criminal behavior(which is actually criminal in this case) on a level when have never heard of before, within a sports program/institution....or you think this stuff is happening with irregularity within the NCAA? I think the word we'll use....unprecedented.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

Why?
Assuming the Murders have come to light, as has the cover-up, where all involved in the crimes are being prosecuted by the law, Why does the NCAA need to do something?
If the NCAA acts who are they punishing?

To elaborate on your point.
If a Vice president of Goldman Sachs is a serial killer, and the CEO covers it up, does Goldman have to go out of business?
Should the S.E.C. get involved?
Or would the crime of murder and the cover-up be handled by the F.B.I. and the courts?

They are punishing the institution and athletic team for covering up crime within the athletic department/institution. Not only covering up crime, but committing crime at the same time. They do this to prevent dishonor to their program.

I think the NCAA needs to do something because they are who govern the institutions. The law is not going to charge the name/institution Penn State University with a crime, but IMO that name/institution let it happen, it needs to be addressed(I actually believe that will happen and again, why PSU is trying to get ahead of the curve here).

Why would the Southeastern Conference address anything with Goldman Sachs? I have to admit that I am ignorant as to the SEC and what they would do in that situation..... I cannot comment on that analogy....

Dom, are you a Penn State fan or just taking that stand?

[King James]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I think the NCAA needs to do something because they are who govern the institutions. The law is not going to charge the name/institution Penn State University with a crime, but IMO that name/institution let it happen, it needs to be addressed(I actually believe that will happen and again, why PSU is trying to get ahead of the curve here).

You better believe the law is going to charge Penn State University in civil court. They are going to get hammered in punitive damages. A university can be a party in a suit just like a company can.

And the NCAA only governs the institutions as far as the NCAA rules go.

[jonumberone]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Dom, are you a Penn State fan or just taking that stand?

I think this above question is what the whole debate is about.
Since the situation involves Collegiate athletics, a subject that evokes competitiveness between people,
logic and reason becomes obscured, even if it is done subconsciously.

If you apply the same exact circumstances to another business, you would not look to that businesses governing body to discipline them,
but rather the authorities and law to handle punishment.
If the same exact scenario played out on a dairy farm, would you expect the FDA to get involved?

If you tell the same exact story, but substitute "Penn State University" with "George Washington High School",
do you still feel the Board of Education should lock the doors or cancel the schools extra curricular activities?

To answer your question, NO I am not a fan of Penn State.
As a matter of fact, I could care less about any college sports.
I don't watch Bowl games, or March madness.
The last college game I watched was LSU v Alabama Pt.1
I found that game to be so boring that I didn't bother to watch the rematch.
I do know what the BCS is, I do know what the main conferences are, as well as most of the rivalries.

I honestly feel, I have no bias here.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I think this above question is what the whole debate is about.
Since the situation involves Collegiate athletics, a subject that evokes competitiveness between people,
logic and reason becomes obscured, even if it is done subconsciously.

If you apply the same exact circumstances to another business, you would not look to that businesses governing body to discipline them,
but rather the authorities and law to handle punishment.
If the same exact scenario played out on a dairy farm, would you expect the FDA to get involved?

If you tell the same exact story, but substitute "Penn State University" with "George Washington High School",
do you still feel the Board of Education should lock the doors or cancel the schools extra curricular activities?

To answer your question, NO I am not a fan of Penn State.
As a matter of fact, I could care less about any college sports.
I don't watch Bowl games, or March madness.
The last college game I watched was LSU v Alabama Pt.1
I found that game to be so boring that I didn't bother to watch the rematch.
I do know what the BCS is, I do know what the main conferences are, as well as most of the rivalries.

I honestly feel, I have no bias here.

Thanks. Yes, it is just easier to know where you stand when discussing things when the parties are neutral so to speak. When someone has love/faith/emotion involved, sometimes discussing it does more harm than good.

As far as what I bolded above... YES!!!!! Not shut down the school, but the athletic program, YES, YES, YES. If the football coach at my local high school(he is a friend of mine), where I went to school and now my kids go to school, when I played, MY FOOTBALL PROGRAM...was involved in such a thing as this(long time cover-up with numerous administrators involved, all for the sake of keeping the programs image squeaky clean)....I would hope the Board of Education would show everyone in the community that kids are worth more than the program and shut the phucker down. Fire everyone and shut it down! IMO, the cover-up was because of football....

Would it happen, I don't know....probably MUCH, MUCH easier at the high school level.....but it is what I think should be done. Not forever, but for a time....yes. Would it effect the innocent, sure....but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

Note, I still am not saying that I think PSU should get the Death Penalty, I'm saying if that happened at my High School...what I think should happen.

[jonumberone]

Originally Posted by E.J.

..I would hope the Board of Education would show everyone in the community that kids are worth more than the program and shut the phucker down. Fire everyone and shut it down! IMO, the cover-up was because of football....

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

[357]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

Flip it around. Is it fair that the University continue to bank millions of dollars via a program that hid these atrocities just to protect that revenue stream? PSU allowed the coverup because football = $$$$. They feared losing that money so they ignored the monster preying on children. Why allow PSU to reap the benefits of the football program when clearly the money is what is most important to them?

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky WERE the Penn State football program. Paterno ran it. The football program FAILED. IMO, football had everything to do with it. The Freeh report makes it irrefutable that Joe Paterno and top administration officials, aided and abetted the acts of a sexual predator solely because of football. Jerry raped boys in the large shadow that Paterno casted for MANY years..

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by jonumberone

I guess this is where we really disagree.
I agree that every one involved should be fired, prosecuted, and serve the maximum sentence.
After those that are involved are removed, what purpose does shutting down the program serve?
Is it fair to the students who had nothing to do with incidents to lose their programs?
If it is to lead by example, isn't a better example set, by returning a program to its glory,
using the principles that it was originally founded on?

IMO, the cover up wasn't because of football, it was because the Men in charge of football, lacked the moral character to do what's right,
and others lacked the conviction to challenge those in charge.
Neither of those reasons, is the fault of football.

Shutting down an athletic program makes a very clear statement that life is not athletics, there are bigger things. If anyone tries to flip that, to make athletics bigger....there is a sure way to bring people around. Life is not fair.

The program has no glory.... It's foundation is 45 years of a coach that harbored a child rapist, many of said rapes, happening in that programs facilities. He knew that children were being abused and swept it under the rug for the sake of the glory of said program. This program has won 2 National Championships with a child rapist as their D Coordinator and had him on staff for 33ish years. They knew who he was and let him hang around.....you know, for the glory of the program. Joe Paterno = Penn State Football

[357]

Yes. If the NCAA can issue a death penalty for paying players or similar LEGAL rule infractions, how can they issue a lesser penalty for allowing these actions to continue in their facilities?

I think they should lose football altogether for 2-4 years and the BigTen should kick them out. AKA no TV revenue sharing.

[King James]

I understand the blame for the football program because Sandusky's acts were covered up to protect the program and university. However, I think there is a distinction between (1) covering up criminal acts to protect the degradation of a program on the one hand, and (2) covering up NCAA violations to enhance the success of a program on the other.

[shilala]

Originally Posted by King James

I understand the blame for the football program because Sandusky's acts were covered up to protect the program and university. However, I think there is a distinction between (1) covering up criminal acts to protect the degradation of a program on the one hand, and (2) covering up NCAA violations to enhance the success of a program on the other.

That's a good point, and the NCAA is supposed to operate to ensure part #2, not #1.

[King James]

Originally Posted by shilala

That's a good point, and the NCAA is supposed to operate to ensure part #2, not #1.

I think the key factor is, as the current NCAA rules are written, there were not any violations of NCAA rules. A requirement for the death penalty under lack of institutional control is that the lack of control is in regard to NCAA rules.

Therefore, unless the NCAA invents a reason, regardless of what anyone arguably thinks should be the penalty, the death penalty does not appear to be an available option.