Should Penn State get the Death Penalty?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by King James

But you are right that, if the NCAA wants to, they are more than capable of concocting a reason.

See: Roger Goodell's, "personal conduct policy."

[replicant_argent]

Some folks have a difficulty recognizing their own theft of intellectual property as an unethical personal conduct. Beyond that, and all chest thumping, self masturbatory, sports "hero" worship culture aside, whether Penn State gets financially "chastised" has absolutely zero impact on the genesis of the cultural problem that pervades the many unfortunates who are unable to function as a Happy Homer automaton without being immersed in it.

Your Mileage May Vary.

[King James]

Originally Posted by replicant_argent

Some folks have a difficulty recognizing their own theft of intellectual property as an unethical personal conduct.

Had difficulty

Originally Posted by replicant_argent

Beyond that, and all chest thumping, self masturbatory, sports "hero" worship culture aside,

I suggested wins under Paterno be taken away to remove him from the record books, and that his statue should be torn down

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice to hear from you too, Pete

[E.J.]

I don’t know, maybe I’m the one missing something here… That is possible....

I just keep seeing comparisons, but IMO there isn’t anything to compare this to. This is unchartered territory for anything we have seen in our lifetime. It is almost unbelievable, like a bad Lifetime Movie meets SportsCenter nuclear bomb of bad television….. Trying to compare some isolated legal problems of student athletes or coaches to the YEARS AND YEARS of serial sexual abuse of children and cover-up of it at PSU is not apples to oranges, it is a single rollerblade boot without wheels and the Space Shuttle….

[King James]

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by King James

I don't think you are missing anything, just are of a different opinion. Boiled down to the basics, I think it should be left up to the courts and that the NCAA should not get involved for this.

I think everyone agrees that the hammer should be dropped on Penn State, just debate over which hammer.

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

[King James]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Fair enough, so with that, would you agree that an argument saying that because "the NCAA has no history of punishing for a domestic violence, DUI, assault or theft ect. So the NCAA getting involved with this, which I feel is a legal issue, should not happen either?" to debate their side is sooooooo far removed from anything we have ever seen, that comparison just doesn't compute?

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.

Originally Posted by E.J.

Let's remember that usually(always?) when a student athlete or coach has a legal issue, they are usually punished by the school as well as the legal system. It isn't like they just deal with the court process and then are good as gold.

I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by King James

I would agree with the NCAA getting involved when there is a violation of an NCAA rule, which, to my knowledge, does not include items like those you listed. What happened at Penn State is so heinous that it seems easy to overlook the similarities between what Sandusky did, and a player or coach raping or assaulting someone in an isolated incident. But I think you need to look at TYPE of act and not DEGREE of act.



I think the difference here is that when the student athletes are punished but the university for a legal issue, its because those athletes sign code of conduct agreements that explicitly discuss what will happen if an athlete faces legal issues.

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?


Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.

[King James]

Originally Posted by E.J.

I am not following your type of act vs degree of act? So you agree we have never seen anything like this in our history and thus, it will be treated differently or no?

Your second statement was just a response to my comments on kids being punished for their crimes X 2. I was not so much stating that if the school didn't do it, the NCAA would, but that it is not an either/or when talking about athletes/athletic programs in my mind. Just because they are punished by the law, does not mean that further sanctions are not in order. I actually think the school will punish itself in this situation, which may very well satisfy the NCAA.

I agree that we have never seen anything like this in our history, and I think that regardless of the extent of the acts, that it isn't the place of the NCAA to enforce sanctions when no NCAA rules were broken.

Correct, it doesn't have to be either/or. But in the example of a student athlete, they sign a specific code of conduct that says they will be punished by the school if they break the law (and then they are also likely punished by the law for breaking the law)

In this case, there does not appear to be an NCAA violation for the NCAA to also punish Penn State on top of what punishment they will face in civil court.

[E.J.]

Fair enough.

[357]

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

[King James]

Originally Posted by 357

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

I'm sure news about the civil case will come out in not too long. Right now they are probably trying to settle out of court. Regardless, the victims will get paid. They may not face the same losses as the death penalty (although I can easily see it being over $100 million)

No matter what the penalties, nothing can undo what happened. I am just of the opinion that the death penalty for the program punishes the wrong people.

[AD720]

Originally Posted by 357

Jim, my concern is that the school will fall through the cracks. The admins who orchestrated the coverup will probably face criminal and/or civil action. I haven't heard that PSU is facing a civil suit at this time. Perhaps they are. Even if they are though, they will continue to benefit from these crimes via football revenue if the NCAA doesn't sanction them severly i.e. give them the death penalty. The civil court doesn't have the ability to kill the football program for and period of time, only the NCAA does.

I highly doubt the civil court will punish them anywhere as sever as the death penalty would. According to this site: http://blogs.mcall.com/nittany_lines...uch-money.html Penn State turned a $50.4 million profit in 2010, on $70.2 million in revenue. I can't see a civil court awarding anything equivalent to a 2-4 year ban on football (approximately $280 million of revenue or $200 million profit).

Some of the judgments paid by the catholic church in the last 10 years may contradict that. Almost three quarters of a billion (720 million dollars) by the archdiocese of Los Angeles alone...

Edit - not trying to get religious, fyi. Just a comparison based on similar crimes.

[E.J.]

I'm not sure I ever seen a convicted rapist(happen at a school, play again at that school) play college football again...

[E.J.]

But again, I'll wait for your information....

Two years would satisfy me!

[ASU Maduro]

I don’t think PSU deserves the Death Penalty, but the sanctions need to be a hair below that. If it is not more severe than recent NCAA sanctions, it would be a slap in the victim’s faces. Ponder this: college football is a business, and if this happened in a true business environment, not only would the persons responsible would be punished; the company would feel the pain, MONEY. And how can the NCAA indirectly limit the schools ability to make MONEY, sanctions through bowl appearances, and stripping of scholarships.

[E.J.]

Joe Schad is reporting that the NCAA will announce tomorrow(Monday) they will penalize, but not with the "death penalty.". Penalty will most likely be Bowl appearance &/or scholarships.

[kelmac07]

I personally believe that if the NCAA decides to impose punishment...they should allow the football players (as they were not involved in this heinous crime) the ability to transfer, while losing no eligilbility. They should allow them to transfer and start playing for their new school right away. While I agree the school needs to be punished in some form or fashion...I don't believe the NCAA should be the one imposing punishment, but if they do...the student athletes shouldn't be the ones who suffer.

[E.J.]

Originally Posted by kelmac07

I personally believe that if the NCAA decides to impose punishment...they should allow the football players (as they were not involved in this heinous crime) the ability to transfer, while losing no eligilbility. They should allow them to transfer and start playing for their new school right away. While I agree the school needs to be punished in some form or fashion...I don't believe the NCAA should be the one imposing punishment, but if they do...the student athletes shouldn't be the ones who suffer.

Though we disagree on the NCAA's responsibility to step in here with sanctions, I am 100% in agreement that the Student Athletes should have the ability to get an outright release from their commitment to the school and be allowed to play at whatever NCAA institution they choose w/ financials(assuming they were offered elsewhere).

I'll go a step further, even without NCAA sanctions, these Students Athletes should be allowed immediate transfer to another institution without penalty due to the perceived stain of PSU. If they didn't want to play under that cloud, they shouldn't have to.