Sometimes you call a spade a spade - Page 2

skibumdc · 07-28-2009, 06:30 AM

Woof.
This is just bad.
$650 is not something to be taken lightly. $20, $40 we can all live with that.
This is above and beyond bad.

07-28-2009, 06:35 AM

sorry to hear about that man i also know how its feels to be ripped off by a guy u thought was a good botl and a mate it was NOT dan that ripped me off tho

marge796 · 07-28-2009, 10:39 AM

There are bad apples in every bushel, unfortunately.

Chris.....

HK3- · 07-28-2009, 10:47 AM

Sorry to hear of your loss Shawn (and the others who were taken for a ride). I was invited to this GB and stood back because things seemed a bit fishy with this cat. Not long after he received payments I got a text message from him saying he was passing my exit off the highway coming from a western state where he drove to purchase a new dog. So, my point is that he did in fact have the $ to refund everyone but chose not to.

While I wish it could happen - I don't think legal action would be wise especially considering the fact that nobody was planning on paying the taxes that would have been owed on the products being purchased.

poker · 07-28-2009, 07:20 AM

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

massphatness · 07-28-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

rrplasencia · 07-28-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by massphatness

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

i've had several transactions with a botl here, i never had any problems, he was great to deal with, i didn't know that he had some issues with a buddy of mine on the forum that was now being handled by the 11, think you eventually kept him out of wts threads, maybe if you get dinged you should be kept out of wts for a certain time, but it goes back to you have to be honest with feedback

poker · 07-28-2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by massphatness

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

I understand your point and agree Vin. I guess what I was referring to was that folks can change at any time. Life shows up and if a persons desperate enough, theres no saying what a person would or wouldn't do. A sad fact of life is that sometimes good folks go bad.

Also...
Those who have been on cigar forums for any length of time have probably already witnessed "the set-up artist". You know, a guy joins a board not unlike this one. He follows all the rules. He establishes himself as a stand up good guy. He sets up trades for good or hard to find cigars. He organizes or participates in group buys. He bombs a few key individuals. He puts not only the time in, but also spends some cash as well. He looks like 200 other great folks to the outside online world.
The problem is, its all a set up. He has placed himself exactly where he wants and planned to be. Many well respected members consider him a stand up guy. Even though the new members dont know him personally, they see other obviously well respected members do appear to know him. His audience is quite large at this point.

He has great trader references. He's been around for a while. He's actually met a few folks.
Then he lists group buys. He lists box splits he organized. He might list multiple boxes of expensive hard to find or highly desirable cigars for sale. Possibly even at multiple forums.

....and once he has your money....

...."poof". Like magic, he disappears. Just like that.

Im not saying thats Dan, but it has happened in the past by some and will be tried again by others.

icehog3 · 07-28-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by massphatness

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

I disagree with your disagreement, Vin. (Sounds a little like John Cleese, huh?)

Dan's "established pattern" suggested otherwise as well.....50 positives and not a single negative. Not until that first negative appeared would anyone who had not dealt with Dan on these last trades/splits have a clue he had become untrustworthy. JHMO.

07-28-2009, 08:14 AM

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history.

(I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is.

)

Thank you for posting your facts Shawn. Seems Hardcz's actions (or lack of) has told his side of the story and now we have yours. Only one of many from what understand. It's nice to have the ability to see both sides of an issue when making a judgement on ones integrity.

pnoon · 07-28-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahc4353

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history.

(I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is.

)

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

Scottw · 07-28-2009, 07:28 AM

Surprising enough, I gave Dan neg trader ratings and he PM'ed me offering to send me replacement sticks and "make things right" between us. I told him that I understood that he was having a rough time and that it was unneccesary for him to send more sticks. I thought this was an attempt by him to do the right thing with everyone or at least apologize. Shawn, so sorry to hear this, I would take some action though even if it is informing the authorities in his local area. That's a good amount of money right there.

GoldnGT · 07-28-2009, 07:54 AM

I'm not sure what you bought from him, but this is not any different than a situation that a friend of mine recently went through with a Supercharger purchase for his son's car at a loss of just over $1000 bucks. This is considered internet fraud and if wanted, you could press charges against him... assuming you have his legit contact information. I can talk to my friend that just went through all of this and PM you the process he went through when he went through and pressed charges against the guy for the supercharger if you want. Lemme know.

poker · 07-28-2009, 08:08 AM

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

Skywalker · 07-28-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poker

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

How do we add Dan to the list???

Is it possible to start a list of our own as a Sticky (with rules of course)???

07-28-2009, 10:16 AM

A couple of things.

My thanks to you who have either PM'd me, emailed me or spoken kind words here to me. It was not my intent this be a poor Fox thread, I went into this deal with my head up knowing that I could lose my money as I do on every deal.

It was to present the facts I had for others to be aware.

As for the legal action, I am in agreement with Poker.

An interesting point I didn't think of arrising from this was Vin's point that we all bear a culpability to provide honest trader feedback on all deals good and bad. Being a "nice guy" and not saying the truth compromises any value the trader feedback tool has to other users.

On a more smug note........I too am a firm believer in Karma..........Cigar Beetle, I like that.

14holestogie · 07-28-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox

On a more smug note........I too am a firm believer in Karma..........Cigar Beetle, I like that.

Listen for the "pop."

Kreth · 07-28-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox

A couple of things.

My thanks to you who have either PM'd me, emailed me or spoken kind words here to me. It was not my intent this be a poor Fox thread, I went into this deal with my head up knowing that I could lose my money as I do on every deal.

Speaking as a noob, it's somewhat disheartening to see you and the others who responded here, who I've seen participate faithfully in all kinds of trades, PIFs, MAWs, bombs, etc; get taken like this.
I've been amazed by the the thoughtfulness and generosity of the members of this forum. Case in point, my new baby thread. It's usually the proud dad's job to hand out some sticks. Apparently not on CA. I have several packages headed my way from B(S)oTL here. I'm keeping tabs, and I'll certainly return the favor as well as bomb some fellow noobs as finances (and my current lack of sleep

) allow.

poker · 07-28-2009, 08:23 AM

For those who were taken by Dan, you can leave feedback here: (I think)

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/itrader.php?u=225

Please dont leave feedback unless you were actually involved.

croatan · 07-28-2009, 09:06 AM

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

07-28-2009, 06:30 AM	#1
skibumdc That's what she said Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Balco Location: Smoke Less, Age More Posts: 345 Trading: (8)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade Woof. This is just bad. $650 is not something to be taken lightly. $20, $40 we can all live with that. This is above and beyond bad. __________________ The Dude abides

07-28-2009, 06:35 AM	#2
adampc22 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade sorry to hear about that man i also know how its feels to be ripped off by a guy u thought was a good botl and a mate it was NOT dan that ripped me off tho

07-28-2009, 10:39 AM	#3
marge796 It Just Doesn’t Matter!!! Join Date: Feb 2009 First Name: Chris Location: Topeka KS Posts: 1,624 Trading: (28)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade There are bad apples in every bushel, unfortunately. Chris..... __________________ “Don’t talk to me about naval tradition. It’s nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.” -Sir Winston Churchill

07-28-2009, 10:47 AM	#4
HK3- Cashmere Jungle Lord Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Boffa Location: The town so nice they named it twice Posts: 5,035 Trading: (48)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade Sorry to hear of your loss Shawn (and the others who were taken for a ride). I was invited to this GB and stood back because things seemed a bit fishy with this cat. Not long after he received payments I got a text message from him saying he was passing my exit off the highway coming from a western state where he drove to purchase a new dog. So, my point is that he did in fact have the $ to refund everyone but chose not to. While I wish it could happen - I don't think legal action would be wise especially considering the fact that nobody was planning on paying the taxes that would have been owed on the products being purchased.

07-28-2009, 07:20 AM	#5
poker 1:11 Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Kelly Location: SoCal Posts: 5,280 Trading: (7)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant. __________________ Cigar Asylum: A cigar board birthed without agendas, without profiting, and without advertisements. Amor puro Character is what you do when no one is watching

07-28-2009, 08:14 AM	#10
ahc4353 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history. (I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is. ) Thank you for posting your facts Shawn. Seems Hardcz's actions (or lack of) has told his side of the story and now we have yours. Only one of many from what understand. It's nice to have the ability to see both sides of an issue when making a judgement on ones integrity.

07-28-2009, 07:28 AM	#12
Scottw Going Commando Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Scott Location: Sussex, NJ Posts: 2,815 Trading: (6)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade Surprising enough, I gave Dan neg trader ratings and he PM'ed me offering to send me replacement sticks and "make things right" between us. I told him that I understood that he was having a rough time and that it was unneccesary for him to send more sticks. I thought this was an attempt by him to do the right thing with everyone or at least apologize. Shawn, so sorry to hear this, I would take some action though even if it is informing the authorities in his local area. That's a good amount of money right there.

07-28-2009, 07:54 AM	#13
GoldnGT Hibbidy Jibbidy Join Date: Jul 2009 First Name: Michael Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 178 Trading: (2)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade I'm not sure what you bought from him, but this is not any different than a situation that a friend of mine recently went through with a Supercharger purchase for his son's car at a loss of just over $1000 bucks. This is considered internet fraud and if wanted, you could press charges against him... assuming you have his legit contact information. I can talk to my friend that just went through all of this and PM you the process he went through when he went through and pressed charges against the guy for the supercharger if you want. Lemme know. __________________ Michael TheMustangSource.com

07-28-2009, 08:08 AM	#14
poker 1:11 Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Kelly Location: SoCal Posts: 5,280 Trading: (7)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways. http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list __________________ Cigar Asylum: A cigar board birthed without agendas, without profiting, and without advertisements. Amor puro Character is what you do when no one is watching

07-28-2009, 10:16 AM	#16
SilverFox Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade A couple of things. My thanks to you who have either PM'd me, emailed me or spoken kind words here to me. It was not my intent this be a poor Fox thread, I went into this deal with my head up knowing that I could lose my money as I do on every deal. It was to present the facts I had for others to be aware. As for the legal action, I am in agreement with Poker. An interesting point I didn't think of arrising from this was Vin's point that we all bear a culpability to provide honest trader feedback on all deals good and bad. Being a "nice guy" and not saying the truth compromises any value the trader feedback tool has to other users. On a more smug note........I too am a firm believer in Karma..........Cigar Beetle, I like that.

07-28-2009, 08:23 AM	#19
poker 1:11 Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: Kelly Location: SoCal Posts: 5,280 Trading: (7)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade For those who were taken by Dan, you can leave feedback here: (I think) http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/itrader.php?u=225 Please dont leave feedback unless you were actually involved. __________________ Cigar Asylum: A cigar board birthed without agendas, without profiting, and without advertisements. Amor puro Character is what you do when no one is watching

07-28-2009, 09:06 AM	#20
croatan Missing Peter Join Date: Oct 2008 First Name: James Location: la Vuelta Abajo Posts: 3,727 Trading: (6)	Re: Sometimes you call a spade a spade In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case. I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental. Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points. __________________ Fumo ergo sum.