Tom Brady

[E.J.]

Darren,
You sound like the defenders of Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds. It's obvious they deflated the balls at the direction on Brady. Doesn't matter if Kraft knew, doesn't matter if Bielchik knew.... I really couldn't care less that they did it, didn't care about the filming, didn't care about Barry Bonds or Lance either. But trying to say any of them didn't cheat due to wording in a report or the charity of their sponsors/owners is a bit amusing.

Seems easiest stance of Pats fans here is, "Great, don't care. I'm happy we won another Super Bowl." Defending this or acting like it isn't or may not be true is just amusing for those who have no horse in the race.

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by E.J.

Darren,
You sound like the defenders of Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds. It's obvious they deflated the balls at the direction on Brady. Doesn't matter if Kraft knew, doesn't matter if Bielchik knew.... I really couldn't care less that they did it, didn't care about the filming, didn't care about Barry Bonds or Lance either. But trying to say any of them didn't cheat due to wording in a report or the charity of their sponsors/owners is a bit amusing.

Seems easiest stance of Pats fans here is, "Great, don't care. I'm happy we won another Super Bowl." Defending this or acting like it isn't or may not be true is just amusing for those who have no horse in the race.

As a Pagan I know a Witch hunt when I see one.

[The Poet]

Denial and anger are the first two stages of grief. Some never get beyond those.

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Denial and anger are the first two stages of grief. Some never get beyond those.

Ya know, I don't really watch football, much but injustice bothers me, a lot. I would hate to be subject to punishment of any kind based on something as flimsy as "probably" or "generally". We're taking about possibly many thousands of dollars in fines. If you're going to reach into someone's pocket, it is monstrously unjust to do it without actual proof, otherwise it's just robbery. And to hide behind quasi-legal ambiguity is beyond cowardly. The Pats were found guilty because the 31 other owners wanted it that way, period. If you can't beat them on the field, then beat them in the Boardroom.

This anger is just an adjunct to all kinds of other, non-related anger.

[The Poet]

I tried to be nice and let it slide, but if you really insist on

Originally Posted by Subvet642

We can't have anyone that much better than anyone else, can we?

Small people HATE to see others achieve because it diminishes them by comparison. It's Communist; you know, a hive mentality. No one must stand out. No one should be allowed any more honors than his brother. Everything belongs to the collective, body and soul, like insects. So what happens? Brady will be destroyed by the collective for his greatness and nothing more. They're like the football equivalent of Antonio Salieri. History has demonstrated many times before that collective mediocrity will always try to destroy individual greatness; not unlike the James Caan character in "Rollerball". And again I ask: what about the under-inflated game balls of Indianapolis that day?

Originally Posted by Subvet642

Ya know, I don't really watch football, much but injustice bothers me, a lot. I would hate to be subject to punishment of any kind based on something as flimsy as "probably" or "generally". We're taking about possibly many thousands of dollars in fines. If you're going to reach into someone's pocket, it is monstrously unjust to do it without actual proof, otherwise it's just robbery. And to hide behind quasi-legal ambiguity is beyond cowardly. The Pats were found guilty because the 31 other owners wanted it that way, period. If you can't beat them on the field, then beat them in the Boardroom.

This anger is just an adjunct to all kinds of other, non-related anger.

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by The Poet

I tried to be nice and let it slide, but if you really insist on

That Sir, is not the same thing. It would happen to anyone, any team that achieved as much. Had the, oh I don't know, Browns achieved as much, they would be the target and it would be just as slimy. My issue is the nebulous standard of "proof", not the Pats, as such. As I wrote, I don't really watch football much; I am a baseball fan. Someone once said that when society discovers just how much injustice we will take, that's just how much we're gonna get. As an aside, what does it say about the NFL's standard of justice when a batterer gets only a two game suspension? It says a lot.

And one more time: Why were the under-inflated Indy game balls seemingly ignored? Are they not subject to the same standards? That in itself points to extreme bias. Same day. Same rule. Same "infraction". Different results. One more thing: The Combined Gas Law precisely accounts for the pressure discrepancy as observed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_gas_law

[Blueface]

I could be wrong and if I am, please correct me.
The Indy balls were not affected. The balls were presented to the officials to be used for the game and after inspected, NE deflated them. I am confused as to how Indy deflated balls keeps coming up in this discussion as theirs were not deflated.

Also, repeat offenders are punished more severely. That happens in our legal system all the time. There is no argument NE is a repeat offender. I think the punishment is a clear message to the Patriots and the league that these types of unethical repeated offenses will not be tolerated.

[shilala]

Adam, I don't think we're doing "phrasing" anymore.

[Porch Dweller]

Originally Posted by shilala

Adam, I don't think we're doing "phrasing" anymore.

[mosesbotbol]

I don't feel any punishment should happen to Tom Brady. If NFL wants to fine the Pats or take a draft pick; that's fine. In the end the NFL knows this was just low lying fruit for them to save face with all the bad publicity they've had in recent years.

Take down your crown jewels to pretend there's integrity to the league... What a joke.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by Subvet642

Ya know, I don't really watch football, much but injustice bothers me, a lot. I would hate to be subject to punishment of any kind based on something as flimsy as "probably" or "generally". We're taking about possibly many thousands of dollars in fines. If you're going to reach into someone's pocket, it is monstrously unjust to do it without actual proof, otherwise it's just robbery. And to hide behind quasi-legal ambiguity is beyond cowardly. The Pats were found guilty because the 31 other owners wanted it that way, period. If you can't beat them on the field, then beat them in the Boardroom.

This anger is just an adjunct to all kinds of other, non-related anger.

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

I don't feel any punishment should happen to Tom Brady. If NFL wants to fine the Pats or take a draft pick; that's fine. In the end the NFL knows this was just low lying fruit for them to save face with all the bad publicity they've had in recent years.

Take down your crown jewels to pretend there's integrity to the league... What a joke.

Again, I can't help but wonder what you said about A-Rod.

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Again, I can't help but wonder what you said about A-Rod.

He's a purse slapping Yankee. Isn't that enough? But he wouldn't make a patch in Jeter's @ss. Jeter's a class act, A-Rod, not so much.

Seeing as this whole thing was precipitated through a sting by Indianapolis, they better check the fans at Gillette for batteries when Indy comes to town.

[The Poet]

Originally Posted by Subvet642

He's a purse slapping Yankee. Isn't that enough? But he wouldn't make a patch in Jeter's @ss. Jeter's a class act, A-Rod, not so much.

Seeing as it was precipitated through a sting by Indianapolis, they better check the fans at Gillette for batteries when Indy comes to town.

Three points here to address.

First, I don't like A-Rod, and won't defend him, beyond saying that giving him 3X the punishment meted out to those who DID fail a PED test when he DID NOT seemed extreme, especially when this punishment was largely based upon the testimony of a confessed criminal who offered his testimony to ameliorate his own punishment by throwing A-Rod under the bus. But to accuse the NFL of going after Brady because he is a Patriot while simultaneously applauding MLB for going after A-Rod because he is a Yankee is specious nonsense, especially in light of the fact that A-Rod's only truly documented violation of PED use occurred when he was a Ranger, not a Yankee.

Second, no one in their right mind would put A-Rod's reputation on the same plane as Jeter's. Such would be nearly as foolish as was the 2006 assertions by Red Sox fans that Papelbom was a better closer than Rivera.

Lastly, be it offered jokingly or not, the threat of a violent unsportsmanlike reaction by Pats fans the next time the Colts visit Gillette is disturbing. However, given a history of such actions in Boston venues in the past, such a warning is not surprising in the least. Admittedly, Boston fans are not alone in this, but they certainly have an established track record of bad behavior.

[mhailey]

Tom cheated. period. That others have cheated as well is irrelevant as to whether or not he cheated. He should have his ring taken, fined, and forced to sit out a year without pay.

If I were a Colt player/owner/stakeholder I would sue Brady and the Patriots for fraud.

As to whether he should be punished based upon the assertion that he "probably" did this ....... well ..... that is the legal standard. Probable means it is more likely than not. It is the same standard when a person is sued in civil court. OJ Simpson was acquitted criminally because the standard was "beyond a reasonable doubt" but was found guilty civilly because the standard was "preponderance of the evidence" (or "more likely than not").

[Subvet642]

Originally Posted by The Poet

Three points here to address.

First, I don't like A-Rod, and won't defend him, beyond saying that giving him 3X the punishment meted out to those who DID fail a PED test when he DID NOT seemed extreme, especially when this punishment was largely based upon the testimony of a confessed criminal who offered his testimony to ameliorate his own punishment by throwing A-Rod under the bus. But to accuse the NFL of going after Brady because he is a Patriot while simultaneously applauding MLB for going after A-Rod because he is a Yankee is specious nonsense, especially in light of the fact that A-Rod's only truly documented violation of PED use occurred when he was a Ranger, not a Yankee.

Second, no one in their right mind would put A-Rod's reputation on the same plane as Jeter's. Such would be nearly as foolish as was the 2006 assertions by Red Sox fans that Papelbom was a better closer than Rivera.

Lastly, be it offered jokingly or not, the threat of a violent unsportsmanlike reaction by Pats fans the next time the Colts visit Gillette is disturbing. However, given a history of such actions in Boston venues in the past, such a warning is not surprising in the least. Admittedly, Boston fans are not alone in this, but they certainly have an established track record of bad behavior.

Papelbon isn't even as good a human being as Mo, few are; another class act. I wasn't threatening anything; I was just pointing out what is already well known: Boston fans are insane and now they're pissed-off. Up here, sports are like war.

[Porch Dweller]

Originally Posted by mosesbotbol

Take down your crown jewels to pretend there's integrity to the league... What a joke.

Yup.
I have a friend who's a Seahawks fan who was droning on and on about "Belicheat" in the week leading up to the Super Bowl. I put this on his Facebook page:
"Pete Carroll left USC ahead of a NCAA investigation that would ultimately strip USC of a national championship amid a scandal that was so systemic that the Sporting News wrote '...justice won't truly be served until the only coaching Carroll ever does entails holding an Xbox controller.' Since moving on to Seattle, Carroll's Seahawks have led the NFL in number of players being suspended for PED violations. In August 2014, Carroll and the Seahawks were fined over $300K for violating the league's CBA and will also lose two mini-camps in 2015.
Shouldn't Pete Carroll be re-named 'Cheat Carroll'? Glass houses, dude, glass houses."

He never responded or mentioned "Belicheat" again.

So, now that the Patriots investigation is done I assume the league will be going after Green Bay and Aaron Rodgers. To refresh, Rodgers bragged in an interview that he sneaks over-inflated balls (phrasing) into games.

[shilala]

I thought Aroid got over-punished and spectacalized.

[JohnnyFlake]

Why is everyone looking at this with kid gloves on?

Cheating, is cheating, but "probably" doesn't cut it. If it could be proven, then Brady should be banned from football, forever, Period! If it cannot be proven, Circumstantial, is all B.S. - Let it go!!!

[mhailey]

I hate to say it, but "probably" is the only thing that cuts it. This is not a "beyond a reasonable doubt" case. It is a "preponderance of the evidence" case.

"In legal terms, a preponderance of evidence means that a party has shown that its version of facts, causes, damages, or fault is more likely than not the correct version, as in personal injury and breach of contract suits. This standard is the easiest to meet and applies to all civil cases unless otherwise provided by law.

The concept of “preponderance of the evidence” can be visualized as a scale representing the burden of proof, with the totality of evidence presented by each side resting on the respective trays on either side of the scale. If the scale tips ever so slightly to one side or the other, the weightier side will prevail. If the scale does not tip toward the side of the party bearing the burden of proof, that party cannot prevail." http://courts.uslegal.com/burden-of-...-the-evidence/

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence, and when it is enough to tip the scales in one direction or another, then it prevails.

Aaron Hernandez was convicted of murder based upon "circumstantial evidence."

EDIT: Aaron was a patriot too, wasn't he??

[Porch Dweller]

Wow, people REALLY get their feelings hurt over silly games played by multi-millionaires, don't they?
I mean lawsuits? Really?!? For violating just one of the many, many rules in the rule book? If an offensive lineman gets away with a couple of holds in a game (a game his team would have won anyway) do you guys call for lifetime bans for him? Do you think the losing team should sue? Do you demand he sit out a year without pay? I suppose we should ban linemen from the game, period, seeing that their unofficial motto is "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'."

Perspective, folks...sometimes you lose it when you're on a high horse.