stirring the pot local B&M vs big internet

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

That wouldn't be a placebo effect, it would be bias, and it is unclear to me what direction the bias would go.

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.



Look at his argument again. Most internet shops are expansions from B&Ms. Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop. I dismiss that out of hand because it doesn't pass the smell test, let alone my personal experience.

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by Legend

If you look at the original post I acknowledged that the big internet guys were themselves b&m and that their local store would be considered part of the internet store for the purpose of this discussion.

Originally Posted by Legend

3. I understand that all the big internet guys also have b&m. I'll still refer to them as internet stores. They are different.

Emphasis placed by me.

So once a B&M starts selling online, they start getting the second rate cigars? Come on ... your thesis is ridiculous. The cost alone of keeping 2 separate inventories (the good cigars and the bad cigars) would preclude this. Six months makes a huge difference in taste of many cigars and is most likely the source of your preference. This is simpler and more logical than two inventories from what ... all vendors? All of them are conspiring and having two versions of all their cigars? Now that just doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

[Kreth]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Based on your thesis, you are suggesting that J&R sells different CAO Brazilias online than they do in their NC shop.

*sigh* I hang out here too much. My first thought after reading this was, "JR has a CC shop?"

[mithrilG60]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

Normally I'm all for cigar testing on boards, but this, to me, is like designing an experiment to show that the earth is round.

The experiment would actually be pretty simple, just a basic double-blind study. Take for example 5 testers testing one vitola. A person independent from the testers would buy 2 boxes with roughly the same date stamps, 1 from a B&M and 1 from an online vendor, label them box A and B and give them to a second independent person (the distributor) without letting them know which is which. That second person would then remove the bands and replace them with blanks labeled to match the boxes they've come out and age them for a predetermined length of time in a known constant environment. Each of the testers would receive 10 cigars, 5 from each box, which they would have to smoke (preferably alternating equally between the 2 stocks) and record their impressions of both the smoke and their mood at the time. Once all 10 cigars have been smoked the tester reports their results back to the distributor. Only once all 5 testers have reported back and the distributor has tabulated which, if either, box was preferred does the first person reveal which was the internet box and which was the B&M.

At the end of all that production you'll almost guaranteed to find that the results are the same for each and the perception of a "better" cigar from a B&M/lounge is purely due to the bias induced by the environment and the fact that we are programed to think a more expensive product = better product.

[Raralith]

Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point.

Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

[Kreth]

Originally Posted by Raralith

Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

[Raralith]

Originally Posted by Kreth

I'm kinda wondering what would happen if he mixed things up a bit by giving one of the testers two B&M sticks or two Internet sticks...

And told them you were seeing of B&M and internet cigars were different? I'm almost certain many will say there is.

Originally Posted by Raralith

Legend, most of the things we are saying are purely spectulative, and we have no real proof. I think that internet retailers sell more, you think B&M's sell more, but neither of us have proof. Just because you said it over and over again doesn't mean it is fact so going back to that point over and over again doesn't prove anything at this point.

Don't you work at a B&M or are a member of a lounge in SoCal? This seems obviously blatant to everyone else that there is a complete bias. The whole purpose of saying, "Hey, let us see if B&M's taste better than internet" is greatly biased. Just because you don't tell them it's from the B&M and internet makes it a blind taste test. Just like your bad example of the placebo effect of buying sticks off the internet cheaper except it could actually be a real placebo effect since you are all sitting around actively trying to see that there is a difference.

agreed.

[TheRiddick]

Legend,

Who are the biggest internet cigar shops? That's right, same guys who ALSO run B&Ms: Famous, CI, Holt's, JR, Corona, etc. There is absolutely no way they ALSO maintain different stocks as proposed by you in the original post (and meaning that cigar manufacturers maintain at least 2 different warehouses as well).

I know of no business, cigar or not, that is looking to increase operational costs instead of cutting them, and anyone believing some yahoo at some cigar factory somewhere wanting to mess with a turista's head just needs to smoke less or entirely cut it out (and I don't mean cigars).

I guess its time for me to cut down on my book purchases over the internet, the paper they are printed on must be inferior to the ones sold at a B&M. And that watch must be made of inferior steel as well... Internet bought means inferior, in short.

So far you said that CA reviews are bought via ad dollars with absolutely no proof provided, now you are saying that a good number of cigars smokers are buying inferior products from internet stores and manufacturers who KNOWINGLY sell inferior product. Wow...

Since you live near Temecula I am sure wine makers there say they make superior product to, say, Napa, to any tourist that makes a stop at a local tasting room. Must also be true since a winery tasting room employee says it.

Don't believe everything you think.

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Legend,

Who are the biggest internet cigar shops? That's right, same guys who ALSO run B&Ms: Famous, CI, Holt's, JR, Corona, etc. There is absolutely no way they ALSO maintain different stocks as proposed by you in the original post (and meaning that cigar manufacturers maintain at least 2 different warehouses as well).

I know of no business, cigar or not, that is looking to increase operational costs instead of cutting them, and anyone believing some yahoo at some cigar factory somewhere wanting to mess with a turista's head just needs to smoke less or entirely cut it out (and I don't mean cigars).

I guess its time for me to cut down on my book purchases over the internet, the paper they are printed on must be inferior to the ones sold at a B&M. And that watch must be made of inferior steel as well... Internet bought means inferior, in short.

So far you said that CA reviews are bought via ad dollars with absolutely no proof provided, now you are saying that a good number of cigars smokers are buying inferior products from internet stores and manufacturers who KNOWINGLY sell inferior product. Wow...

Since you live near Temecula I am sure wine makers there say they make superior product to, say, Napa, to any tourist that makes a stop at a local tasting room. Must also be true since a winery tasting room employee says it.

Don't believe everything you think.

Awesome. I'll check my thoughts with you in the future. Since you know which of my thoughts are ridiculous and which aren't. I certainly can't trust myself. And you seem very willing to help.

Ok. I'm just funning with you. Worry not. I'm not offended by your post. Just figured I'd demonstrate the absurdity of your statements. While you believe I may need to not believe everything I think. Its painfully obvious you shouldn't post everything you think. Truly riddick to summarily dismiss anothers thoughts as wrong when you have no proof. Particularly after he has admitted that his thoughts are just opinions that can't be proven. Just like yours. But of course your opinions are facts.

Truly no sweat riddick. Not offended. Just some advice.

[Genetic Defect]

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked

[TheRiddick]

Originally Posted by Big Vito

I have yet to taste Cali wine that I liked

Maybe you should try one to begin with

[Genetic Defect]

Originally Posted by TheRiddick

Maybe you should try one to begin with

I did but am open to suggestions anything under $50

[Kreth]

I'd be willing to participate, but as I said above, I think you'd have to give some participants 2 B&M sticks or 2 Internet retailer sticks to make it more of a blind study. If everyone knows they have one of each, then they might "manufacture" differences that aren't really there.

[TheRiddick]

Legend,

Usually I am not a supporter of legal action, but "theories" like these simply rub me wrong as they should any other business owner, IMO.

Like I said already, you are 2 for 2 so far, some may say you simply repeat things heard elsewhere, some will say it is clearly libel. Actually, any attorney will say it is libel and will easily prove it in court.

Take a look here:
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...nymous-critics

There are plenty of other examples. Sitting at a keyboard somewhere doesn't give anyone license to mess with someone's business just because he had a "deep thought".

[Da Klugs]

http://www.5min.com/Video/Young-Vin-...eakdance-11490




Hope the Koehler folks don't come a knocking at my door.

[WildBlueSooner]

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

[SeanGAR]

Originally Posted by WildBlueSooner

I propose this. Take the same stick and give people 4 of the same stick. However they will get them in any combination...could be 2 from online and 2 from B&M, one and three, or 4 from one source and have them rate them and say which they think is which. I can almost guarantee you there will be no trend in either direction.

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

[taltos]

Originally Posted by SeanGAR

I don't know how to run the statistics on that type of experimental design. Anybody???

Can't see any control group there and don't see much experimental design.

[Yazzie]

The Dos Equis in a Bottle I get at the bar tastes far superior than the Dos Equis in a bottle that I buy from the liquor store.....

Sure it does....